Targeted Terror: The Hornstein Family’s Nightmare

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,720 Then just two days later, Jack's girlfriend's mom happens to be on the phone with the detective 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,920 as she's sorting the family's mail. 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,040 And suddenly she says, "Oh my god." 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,200 Which is never a great sign. 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,160 Unless it's like, "Oh my god, look, someone sent us like a shitload of money." 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Oh my god, look at that fruit basket! 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:38,960 [Music] 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:39,960 Hi Cassie. 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:40,960 Hi Caitlyn. 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,960 Hi creepy people. 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:43,960 Hello! 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:44,960 Hello! 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:55,960 If you're new to our creepy corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, paranormal and all things. 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,960 Creepy or spooky in the Pacific Northwest. 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:09,960 We do a tarot reading at the end for deeper insight into the episodes, so make sure you stick around if you're into that. 16 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:10,960 They should be. 17 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:13,960 By now, it's a must-listen. 18 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:15,960 Haven't we converted them? 19 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:16,960 I hope so. 20 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:17,960 Yeah. 21 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:19,960 All right Cassie, are you ready? 22 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:21,960 Sure, yeah, I'm ready. 23 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:25,960 I don't think you are, but I guess we'll find out. 24 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:29,960 I don't know, you made the room all spooky and red, so it kind of feels like my vibe. 25 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:31,960 Yeah, totally. 26 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:40,960 On Wednesday, September 27th, 2000, Barry Hornstein was at his family home in Laurelhurst. 27 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:43,960 Do you know where Laurelhurst is? 28 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:45,960 Is that a town or an area? 29 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:47,960 It's a neighborhood in Portland. 30 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:48,960 Yeah, okay. 31 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:56,960 At the time, he was recently separated from his wife, Kathy, though they'd been married for roughly 20 years. 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,960 That's a long time. 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,960 Well, you might want to earmark that for later. 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:01,960 Okay. 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,960 You might get a little bit of an explanation as to why. 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,960 Okay. 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:12,960 The couple's 17-year-old son, Jack, had already left for school at about 8 a.m. that morning. 38 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:20,960 Then later, at around 10 a.m., Barry left his home for the workday without a care in the world, 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,960 nor an enemy to point to in the world seemingly. 40 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,960 Oh, it's like this is sounding really great. 41 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:27,960 I know. 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:28,960 So wholesome. 43 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Besides the separation part. 44 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:31,960 Yeah. 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:33,960 I mean, you know, some ups and downs. 46 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:34,960 Got no care in the world. 47 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:35,960 That sounds nice. 48 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:36,960 I know. 49 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,960 What's that like? 50 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:46,960 Barry was already in his car with his briefcase ready to leave for work when he spotted something strange. 51 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,960 It was a cylindrical object wrapped in black tape. 52 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:53,960 Okay. 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,960 A cylindrical object. 54 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,960 Okay. 55 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:02,960 I don't want to say what I'm thinking, but. 56 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:10,960 Rather than touch the item, he opted to sort of prod it, giving it a little kick. 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,960 It was an odd decision that likely spared his life. 58 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:16,960 Oh, shit. 59 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:27,960 Barry described looking down to see that there was a large amount of blood coming from his leg through his shredded pants. 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,960 Okay. 61 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:36,960 At 10.19 a.m. Barry's Laurelhurst neighbors heard a boom. 62 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,960 I don't like that. 63 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:46,960 It was Jeff Dixon that called 911 after he saw his neighbor lying injured near his vehicle. 64 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:56,960 Richard Price, who lived just a few houses down on a nearby corner, said he was in the shower when he heard the explosion. 65 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,960 That would be scary. 66 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:00,960 What the fuck is that? 67 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:01,960 Fireworks? 68 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:02,960 That's what I would think. 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,960 I don't think you would have thought this was fireworks. 70 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,960 They're a little too close. 71 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:14,960 They're a little too close, and it's definitely a different booming sound from what I gather. 72 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,960 It was a big boom, and I'm pretty deaf, he said. 73 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:25,960 So this is someone who already doesn't have great hearing, and he's in a running shower, and he'll heard it. 74 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:26,960 Yeah. 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:37,960 No word on the name of the other terrified resident in the Price Household, but I thought it was important to note that his puppy was not amused. 76 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,960 Extremely frightened, in fact, from the sounds of it. 77 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,960 No, he didn't have a thunder shirt. 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,960 No, I don't think they were expecting thunder at that point. 79 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,960 Hundreds of feet away, chunks of pipe landed on the Laurel-Hurst Elementary School lawn. 80 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,960 Oh, God, it was close to a school. 81 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,960 Yeah, this is a residential neighborhood. 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,960 A fairly upscale one at that, so dang. 83 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:04,960 Yeah. 84 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:14,960 One neighbor reported a piece of flying shrapnel that came through a window of their home, which is kind of horrifying. 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:22,960 The bomb was far more sophisticated than was typical of an average pipe bomb. 86 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:32,960 It had an electronic battery to assist in detonation, and there were ball bearings inside the pipe. 87 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:33,960 Oh, God. 88 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,960 Why did they put things in the bombs? 89 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,960 I don't like it. It's already a bomb. 90 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,960 They do that because it makes it far more deadly. 91 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,960 I know, but I don't like it. 92 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:52,960 It was clearly intended to be fatal, but no forensic evidence was found on the bomb remnants that were collected from the crime scene. 93 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,960 Wouldn't it just burn all up? 94 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,960 I mean, not necessarily. 95 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:04,960 There are still like bits and shards and things that fly in all directions out from the blast. 96 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,960 Back to Barry. 97 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:14,960 Barry. The bones in his lower right leg were shattered. 98 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,960 And there was widespread tissue loss. 99 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:27,960 In the hospital, days from a combination of drugs, he was administered, as well as, I'm sure, a fair bit of shock. 100 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:36,960 Barry was informed that he was being taken into surgery for an emergency amputation of part of his leg. 101 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,960 Jesus, that's awful. 102 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:39,960 Yeah. 103 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:46,960 Which I have to say, though, it makes the question at the point of amputation. 104 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,960 Are there situations that it's not an emergency? 105 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,960 I mean, I assume we're not doing that casually. 106 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,960 I mean, sometimes I have to amputate because of diabetes or whatever. 107 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,960 It's like an emergency, but not like. 108 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:00,960 Yeah. 109 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,960 I mean, that's the only thing that I could think of as well. 110 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:03,960 That's the only thing. 111 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,960 Or if someone had a slow moving infection or possibly. 112 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:10,960 You guys let us know. 113 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:11,960 Yeah. 114 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,960 So then I started to wonder. 115 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,960 Would emergency surgery to amputate his leg have been better phrasing? 116 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:28,960 In any case, he would undergo life-saving surgery, amputating his leg below the knee. 117 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:34,960 The investigator showed up to talk to him even before Barry went into surgery, 118 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:41,960 because there was a little bit of concern as to whether or not he would survive. 119 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,960 Oh, geez. 120 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,960 But Barry woke up after his surgery at Legacy Emanuel to quite a start. 121 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:56,960 The gaunt vaguely, I'm going to say spooky, man. 122 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:03,960 In all black, left him concerned that he had come face to face with the grim reaper. 123 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,960 Oh, was it a priest? 124 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:07,960 No. 125 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,960 In truth, it was Portland Police Detective William Law. 126 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,960 That makes sense, but law, really? 127 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:15,960 Wow. 128 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,960 If you're going into law enforcement, I'm hard pressed to think of a better name. 129 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:25,960 I feel like if you have the last name law, you have to be a police officer or like a lawyer or something. 130 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:26,960 Pretty much. 131 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,960 Like those are your options. 132 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:29,960 Figure it out. 133 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:30,960 Sorry. 134 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,960 Pick a lane. 135 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:38,960 He told the detective that he couldn't think of anyone who'd want to harm him or his family. 136 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,960 Yeah, because he like didn't have a care in the world. 137 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,960 Everyone loved me. 138 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:44,960 Didn't have an enemy. 139 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:45,960 I got my briefcase. 140 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,960 I'm going to my real job. 141 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,960 Yep. 142 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,960 That's all I thought about when you said briefcase, I was like, this man has a real job. 143 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,960 That is a real ass job. 144 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,960 I'm going to start bringing in a briefcase over here. 145 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:57,960 Okay. 146 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:58,960 Okay. 147 00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:59,960 I think that'd be good. 148 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:00,960 I feel good about that. 149 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:01,960 Legitimize this. 150 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:02,960 I'm going to go to Goodwill and find one. 151 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:03,960 You know what? 152 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:04,960 It's a tax right off. 153 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,960 Go to fucking Louis Vuitton. 154 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,960 We need that company credit card first. 155 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:18,960 That is exactly why we will not be issued a company credit card. 156 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:26,720 Barry was a 59 year old Jewish Portland native and actually a lifelong resident who had graduated 157 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,960 from Lincoln High. 158 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,960 Oh, I know. 159 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,960 Just a local guy. 160 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:33,960 Portlandian. 161 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:35,960 Portlandian. 162 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:42,240 He had attended classes and played football with Michael Schrunk. 163 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:43,520 Are we supposed to know who that is? 164 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,320 I mean, probably not. 165 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,760 This is a long time ago and it's not like he was the president. 166 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,960 He was then the Multnomah County District Attorney. 167 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:53,960 Oh. 168 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,200 So, probably not a bad friend to have. 169 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:58,200 No. 170 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,200 The BADA. 171 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:00,200 Mm-hmm. 172 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,200 Badass. 173 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,200 I like that. 174 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,200 District Attorney. 175 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Uh. 176 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:05,200 Okay. 177 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:06,200 Woo! 178 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,200 Woo! 179 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:14,760 At the time, he worked as an insurance agent primarily handling clients in the restaurant industry. 180 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:22,120 So that's what Barry did with his totally real, grown-ass adult job. 181 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,120 That's where he took his briefcase. 182 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,120 Uh-huh. 183 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:26,120 Insurance. 184 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,120 Place. 185 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,120 I imagine all that important paperwork. 186 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:30,120 I know. 187 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,120 I'm in that briefcase. 188 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,120 Less. 189 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,120 Wow. 190 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:40,960 So, he's hardly the type of person you might expect would encounter a pipe bomb, right? 191 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:41,960 Yeah. 192 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,520 I was a little surprised. 193 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:55,120 Of course, the investigators take a look at everyone close to Barry, beginning with his, 194 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,920 shall we say, estranged, um, separated? 195 00:10:58,920 --> 00:10:59,920 Hmm. 196 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:00,920 Kathy. 197 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,920 The wife did it. 198 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,560 I mean, it's often this spouse, man or woman. 199 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:11,920 That was me quoting a thing, not me saying, but she did it just to you. 200 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,840 Oh, I feel like that was clear. 201 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:14,840 Okay. 202 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,640 Well, I don't know if you're not a true crime person. 203 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,640 Maybe someone's listening for the first time. 204 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,760 They're like, oh, she did it. 205 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:21,760 What an accusation. 206 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:22,760 I know. 207 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,760 And they immediately turn off the podcast and they don't listen to the rest. 208 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,000 So they fully think that Kathy did it. 209 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000 They leave a bad review. 210 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,200 Kathy did not do this. 211 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,000 Oh, gosh. 212 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,320 That is defamation of character. 213 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,160 When she learned what had happened to Barry, she quickly rushed to his side. 214 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:48,000 Their separation wasn't intended to end the marriage, but rather to coax him into seeking 215 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,840 treatment for his addiction. 216 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,880 Oh, okay. 217 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:53,880 New layer. 218 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,560 Any guesses? 219 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:59,120 His addiction gambling? 220 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,080 How can you read my notes from that? 221 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,080 I can't. 222 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,080 I just knew. 223 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,080 I don't know. 224 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,080 I don't know. 225 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,080 I don't know. 226 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,080 Have you heard this case before? 227 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,080 No. 228 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,400 I literally am just psychic. 229 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:11,400 Okay. 230 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,760 I heard addiction and in my mind said gambling and that is how I said it. 231 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,880 She is almost 60. 232 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,000 So I feel like gambling to me. 233 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,040 That's probably what I would think as well. 234 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,680 Normally I would have probably just said like alcohol. 235 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:25,680 Oh. 236 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:26,680 Sex addiction. 237 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,160 I'm psychic. 238 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,160 All right. 239 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:35,160 Barry told investigators that they had been in therapy for roughly a year prior to their 240 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,000 separation because of his gambling addiction. 241 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,000 Oh. 242 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,800 Yeah. 243 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,840 This is rough. 244 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:51,400 Barry gambled away roughly $200,000 from the family savings, but had never taken out debt 245 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,560 to support his habit. 246 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:58,880 He lost their life savings but didn't have any threatening debts related to the gambling. 247 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,600 So no like, you know, sharks after him. 248 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,600 Okay. 249 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,720 So that's good, I guess. 250 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:06,720 I mean, yeah. 251 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:07,720 There's that. 252 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,520 Next, Jack was questioned on the grounds of his high school. 253 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,240 He hadn't seen anything in the driveway when he left for school. 254 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:24,480 Authorities decided to take a closer look into Barry's song, "Shack, though." 255 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,520 There weren't any red flags initially. 256 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,920 So he played football and seemed popular amongst his peers. 257 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,680 Jack was somewhat introverted. 258 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:44,400 There were some fairly typical teenage shenanigans like Aginga House and a paintball incident 259 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:50,080 that had stirred up a bit of tension in their neighborhood. 260 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,080 A paintball incident? 261 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,080 Yeah. 262 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:58,320 I didn't get into the details, but it sounds like maybe somebody had some paint damage 263 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,480 or like a broken window or... 264 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:09,640 It's not great, but nothing that seemingly would have motivated this type of vicious attack. 265 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:16,560 Eventually, authorities would learn about flyers that were distributed. 266 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:22,400 They were emailed out to a bunch of Jack's peers at school. 267 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:30,800 The flyers claimed that he was a rapist. 268 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:31,800 Who? 269 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:32,800 Jack. 270 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,800 The Jack was a 18-year-old son. 271 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:35,800 Oh, shit. 272 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,800 Okay. 273 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:37,800 Yeah. 274 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,200 I know it's a little bit hard to wrap your head around. 275 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,440 I thought you were saying he put the flyers out. 276 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,440 No. 277 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:43,440 Okay. 278 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,280 These are flyers that were randomly emailed to a bunch of his peers. 279 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:55,280 And these emails encouraged people to print them out and post them around town. 280 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,120 That's awful if it's not true. 281 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,120 Mm-hmm. 282 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:06,120 The flyers had been placed in and around his high school and claimed that Jack had raped 283 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,480 a 13-year-old girl. 284 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,160 Of course, Jack denied these allegations. 285 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,120 He was asked to take a lie detector test. 286 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Which initially he failed, leading to additional questioning. 287 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:32,920 After investigating further, including conducting a voluntary search of his computer, police 288 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,640 then prompted him to take that second lie detector test. 289 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Apparently, he was just super nervous the first time because he passed on the second 290 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,640 go-around. 291 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,360 I was going to say I'd be so nervous I wouldn't pass that I wouldn't pass. 292 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:48,360 Yeah. 293 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:54,040 You know, the thing about lie detector test and this comes up a lot in different cases 294 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,280 where they're involved. 295 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,480 It's like, this isn't admissible in court. 296 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,000 So why are we doing this rigour maryl? 297 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,080 Where are we even, you know, bothering? 298 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:08,820 I mean, you're just, honestly, you're just traumatizing a 17-year-old kid who is already 299 00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:10,120 stressed to the max. 300 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:11,520 His parents are separated. 301 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,680 His dad just had to have his leg amputated. 302 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:21,000 So like, yeah, he might be a little bit, uh, all over the place, emotionally. 303 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,160 Definitely. 304 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,600 When I'm being questioned, and I feel like I'm lying no matter what. 305 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Yeah. 306 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,400 I mean, you just feel stressed, you know, than anything. 307 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,800 Jack received an anonymous letter that was allegedly addressed by the bomber. 308 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,840 Okay. 309 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,720 The bomber wrote this letter, allegedly. 310 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Allegedly. 311 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:43,720 Okay. 312 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:52,800 The letter indicated remorse for hurting Barry and stated the bomb had been meant for 313 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:53,800 Jack. 314 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:54,800 Mm. 315 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:55,800 Or Barry. 316 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,800 I mean, poor. 317 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,320 I don't know about Jack yet. 318 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,080 I don't know if he's guilty or innocent. 319 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:02,080 True. 320 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:03,680 It doesn't, you don't know how to feel about it. 321 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,200 But you assume innocence, right? 322 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,200 Mm-hmm. 323 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,040 I mean, you always assume until proven otherwise. 324 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,040 But still? 325 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,960 Or a reasonable doubt for sure for Barry. 326 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:15,960 Yes. 327 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:23,320 Authorities theorized that the bomb had previously been attached to the underside of Jack's 328 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:29,200 vehicle with magnets, which would prove true. 329 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,200 Okay. 330 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,840 The bomb was attached to Jack's car. 331 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:40,600 And it is only just luck of the draw that it happened to have fallen off the underside 332 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,360 of his vehicle. 333 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,720 And he drove away and left for school. 334 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:51,080 And it was still laying in the driveway when Barry left for work that morning. 335 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,200 Damn, that's like movie shit. 336 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Like it is. 337 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,360 Literally, I'm watching this on the big screen right now. 338 00:17:58,360 --> 00:17:59,360 Yeah. 339 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:00,360 Car bombings. 340 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:01,360 Yeah. 341 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:02,360 It falling off. 342 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,160 That's crazy. 343 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,160 It's pretty wild. 344 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,160 Is there a movie out of this? 345 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,760 Because I bet there could be. 346 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:15,120 I don't think there's an actual Hollywood style movie, but there is a documentary of sorts. 347 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:19,640 It's basically just a true crime show that didn't episode about it. 348 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,440 But yeah, it's a little cinematic. 349 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:35,080 By October 6th of 2000, shortly after the bomb, Jack visits his girlfriend in Kennewick, 350 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,880 Washington. 351 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 The pair hit Matt at a seaside arcade. 352 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:40,600 Oh. 353 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,720 While they were on a family vacation. 354 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,080 Like actual seaside or just like, oh my gosh, I was just there. 355 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,080 The arcade. 356 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,080 The arcade. 357 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,920 We walked around on the arcade. 358 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,640 Yeah, super cool. 359 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,040 That's funny. 360 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,160 Over that weekend, his girlfriend's family is spending some time at a park in their 361 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:10,880 neighborhood and his girlfriend's brother then discovers a pipe bomb on the grounds of that 362 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:11,880 park. 363 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,760 Oh my gosh, it's still coming. 364 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,960 Literally right by their house. 365 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,960 It's after him. 366 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,400 Funny you say that. 367 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:28,200 It had a note attached in Spanish that read, "If you find this, please give it back to 368 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,680 Jack Hornstein." 369 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,680 In Spanish? 370 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:34,680 Okay. 371 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:35,680 Weird. 372 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:36,680 That is. 373 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,680 Weird. 374 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,800 Launforcement quickly responded. 375 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:48,720 They brought the explosive disposal unit, aka the bomb squad for us normies. 376 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:56,960 And thankfully, the device her brother found was discovered to be a fake or a dud. 377 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,360 Was it fake or was it a dud? 378 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:01,360 It was fake. 379 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:03,840 Well, it's like, those are two very different things. 380 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:11,480 I have heard it described as both, alternately, but ultimately, it wasn't really a dud because 381 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:17,440 it didn't have the innards of what would make it a bomb, but it was a very convincing fake. 382 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:22,440 So, they thought it might have been a dud until they really like, dug into it. 383 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,440 Gosh. 384 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:24,440 Yeah. 385 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,040 I don't know why, like, bombs freak me out. 386 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,120 I think I've just watched too many movies where it's like the countdown. 387 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,320 I hate the fucking countdown. 388 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,320 Oh, the countdown. 389 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,680 It reminds me of that game where you try to put the shapes in and it's like ticking down. 390 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:39,680 Operation? 391 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:40,680 No. 392 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,480 You like, you like put the shapes in all the little holes before it, like pops up. 393 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,520 I don't know what that is. 394 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,520 I don't think of what it is. 395 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,160 If you guys know what it is, tell me. 396 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,160 It's dressful. 397 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,040 Kathy thought Jack would be safe while in Kennewick. 398 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:06,520 Kathy, Jack's mom, learned about this additional incident with the fake bomb via the news and ordered 399 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,520 Jack home. 400 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:16,280 Like, dude, don't let your mom find out a bomb real or fake from the news, especially after 401 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,560 everything that your family has just gone through with a very real bomb. 402 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,800 Yeah, I don't know if I would have told her. 403 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,800 I mean, she's gonna hear about it. 404 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:27,800 I don't know. 405 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,040 Did he know that it was gonna be put on the news? 406 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,720 You thought that they were gonna find a fake bomb after his dad had already been attacked 407 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,160 with a bomb and that wasn't gonna make the news. 408 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,160 I don't know. 409 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,040 Depends on what kind of mom she is because... 410 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:51,120 It's a pretty sensational bombing as well because this one was literally addressed 411 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:52,120 to him. 412 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:53,120 Yeah. 413 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:57,200 But I could see how he wouldn't tell him, tell her when he's on vacation. 414 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,760 No, he wants to stay with his girlfriend. 415 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,800 He doesn't want his mom to tell him to come home because she's good. 416 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,880 And it was a fake bomb, so it's fine. 417 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,400 Mom, it's fine. 418 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,400 Yeah. 419 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,400 I see where he's coming from. 420 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,400 Yeah. 421 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,680 But also, like, yikes. 422 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,680 Yeah. 423 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:20,600 Kennewick detective Ken Taylor led the Washington end of the investigation. 424 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,960 And he received a death threat by phone the day after the discovery. 425 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,400 The message was left by someone clearly using a fake Latino accent. 426 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,400 Shoo. 427 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,400 Hmm. 428 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,640 Pretty offensive. 429 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,840 Honestly, in the end, I will just say that. 430 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,600 That's interesting. 431 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,480 This message was laced with a different kind of bomb. 432 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:59,840 F bombs threatening the life of the detective, which is a bold move, not a smart one, but 433 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,440 it's, that is a choice. 434 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,800 Just threatening all around town, damn. 435 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:14,800 Then just two days later, Jack's girlfriend's mom happens to be on the phone with the detective 436 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,000 as she's sorting the family's mail. 437 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:26,760 And suddenly she says, oh my god, which is never a great sign unless it's like, oh my god, 438 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,280 look, someone sent us like a shit load of money. 439 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,320 Oh my god, look at that fruit basket. 440 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:41,120 It was a letter describing the bombing of Barry Hornstein and bearing further threats. 441 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:46,800 I'm going to read to you a small snippet from this letter. 442 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,200 Okay. 443 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:55,400 This is to let you know that Jack Hornstein is a marked man. 444 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,600 I don't want your daughter to get hurt, but what happens will happen. 445 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:01,600 Geez. 446 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,680 Yeah. 447 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:10,400 So, Jack is the real target, but I really don't care if something bad happens to your daughter. 448 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,560 Yeah. 449 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,560 Like ruthless. 450 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:24,040 Following this latest threat, the Hornstein sent Jack to stay with his uncle in Seattle. 451 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:31,880 And unfortunately, his girlfriend's mom forced them to break things off at this point. 452 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,120 She said, I am not letting you put your life at risk. 453 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,240 And you and Jack are officially broken up. 454 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,640 I mean, that makes sense. 455 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,440 Did they actually break up though? 456 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,320 Can they just be long distance? 457 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,720 They were already long distance. 458 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:49,720 Yeah. 459 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:50,720 They're not around each other. 460 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,640 I doubt this person would bomb her if he's not there. 461 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:55,640 If he's the target. 462 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:56,640 If he is the target. 463 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,400 I, you know, overprotective though, I get it. 464 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:05,400 I mean, in this case, I would, I can't even say that this feels like it's overprotective. 465 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,920 I feel like probably about the right amount of protective. 466 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:17,960 Of course, Jack told his girlfriend that he was leaving for Seattle. 467 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,400 Oh, okay. 468 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:27,440 Because he missed her and his whole world has revolved around emails and phone calls to her 469 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,800 whenever they're apart. 470 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:36,360 And up to this point, they actually only saw each other, like, once every other month. 471 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:37,360 Wow. 472 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:38,360 I know. 473 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:41,360 Such sweet wholesome high school. 474 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,680 I know. 475 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:51,320 It's just two days later that he receives an email from an address he doesn't know. 476 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:57,440 That seems to indicate the sender is aware of his travel plans. 477 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,440 Interesting. 478 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:06,280 Outside the Hornstein family, Jack's girlfriend was the only person that knew about the plans. 479 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,280 Hmm. 480 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:15,440 That same email address that sent this latest message was sent by one used in the disparaging 481 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,800 campaign against Jack mere weeks ago. 482 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:20,800 The flyers? 483 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:21,800 Yep. 484 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:22,800 Gotcha. 485 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:29,240 His girlfriend's friends began receiving emails with damaging statements about Jack. 486 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,920 Around this time. 487 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:38,800 And the police attempted to track the emails both that Jack and his girlfriend's friends 488 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:47,360 were receiving messages were traced to Emory and Port Orchard, Washington and even Florida 489 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:48,360 state. 490 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,720 Oh, that's terrifying. 491 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:51,720 Yeah. 492 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,040 What year was this? 493 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,840 Yeah. 494 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:03,400 It was around this time that the grim reaper, aka William Law, from the PPP, hopped in his 495 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,080 car and paid a man up north of visit. 496 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,080 Santa? 497 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,080 No. 498 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,880 Not that far north. 499 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:13,880 Oh, okay. 500 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:14,880 Not quite. 501 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:24,120 Timothy Michael Goff would become a suspect when his credit card was linked to the messages. 502 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:33,120 He was an organ native in his 40s, having graduated from Malala High School in the late 70s. 503 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:38,040 He'd been married and had a daughter who was in her early 20s. 504 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,680 And he and his wife had built a quarter million dollar home in Spokane. 505 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:43,680 Damn. 506 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,320 Which is a pretty nice house in the early 2000s. 507 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,320 Yeah. 508 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,320 I want one. 509 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,320 I know, right? 510 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,320 Like, all day, like a quarter of a million dollar house right now. 511 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:59,080 I mean, it would basically be a shed, but yeah. 512 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,800 Inflation, am I right? 513 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,800 By the time investigators came knocking, he and his wife had separated. 514 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:16,120 He had also relocated to Port Orchard, Washington, which lies in the Puget Sound area very close 515 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,280 to Canada. 516 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,040 Very far north. 517 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,560 Very far north. 518 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,280 That's to the north pole. 519 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,480 Practically to the north pole. 520 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,480 Yeah. 521 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,480 That's why you put the red on. 522 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,480 For saying that. 523 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:32,480 For saying that. 524 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,480 Yep. 525 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,800 Timothy had found lucrative work as a pipe fitter. 526 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,800 Pipe fitter. 527 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,800 Interesting. 528 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:42,800 Yeah. 529 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,280 Really interesting job. 530 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,800 You must come across a lot of spare pipes. 531 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:51,800 Actually he does. 532 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:52,800 Yeah. 533 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,600 Got a lot of access to pipes. 534 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:02,040 Timothy's brother was a Portland city planner, which sounds a lot less interesting than a pipe 535 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,520 fitter. 536 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:09,120 He claimed to have met Jack's girlfriend in an online chat room. 537 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:17,240 One publication said, and I quote, "The bearded, stalky, former Portlander admitted 538 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,680 trading emails with her," but said, "That was their only contact." 539 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,000 Was that a lie? 540 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,280 I mean, it wasn't the truth. 541 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,000 We all know that the truth is better than a lie. 542 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,720 That's a quote. 543 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,720 Don't you forget it. 544 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,120 What's that from? 545 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,720 The Gettysburg address? 546 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,840 Apparently, that wasn't the most believable story. 547 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,000 Law enforcement. 548 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,600 They were like, I don't know. 549 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,800 That actually smells like horseshit. 550 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,640 And they were issued a search warrant on site. 551 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,280 They wanted to go in, have a little, little look see around. 552 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,560 And he was like, I think you need a warrant for that. 553 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,960 And they were like, okay, hold my beer. 554 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,960 Yeah. 555 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:11,960 Yeah. 556 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,360 I mean, they weren't drinking beer. 557 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:16,360 I don't think so. 558 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:17,360 I don't think so. 559 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,280 I feel like that might make their investigation invalid. 560 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,680 Yeah, I think that would cause some complications. 561 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,680 Yeah. 562 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:24,680 Correct. 563 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,160 Anyways, once they got inside, a good friend Tim here. 564 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:35,680 He had pipe fitting equipment, which, you know, par for the course for pipe fitter, keeps 565 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,080 him in his briefcase. 566 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,080 Yeah. 567 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:45,080 The sophisticated computer set up, though a slightly more damning discovery within his 568 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:53,400 home, was the slip of paper with the Hornstein family's address in his wallet. 569 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,400 Huh. 570 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,120 Why would he need that? 571 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,560 That's pretty weird. 572 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,560 Yeah. 573 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,240 Two tapes were located under his bed. 574 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,080 And they would prove to be the most disgusting and damning items police would take into 575 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,080 evidence. 576 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,080 Tapes? 577 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,080 Yep. 578 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,080 Like videotapes. 579 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,080 Oh. 580 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,080 Yeah. 581 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,400 That makes me uncomfortable. 582 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,160 It's gonna be real uncomfortable. 583 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,800 If you find it under your bed, it's nothing good. 584 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,920 Historically, no. 585 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,240 No. 586 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:36,640 These were child sex abuse materials that showed him performing sex acts with a minor, with 587 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,080 one in particular. 588 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,640 None other than Jack's girlfriend. 589 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,640 Oh. 590 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,640 Oh. 591 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,000 Investigators called, and I'm omitting their names here, because the names that are used 592 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,720 in all of the source material are fake anyway. 593 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:57,720 Oh, okay. 594 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:03,920 Um, Taylor called the girlfriend and her mother into the police station and told the girl 595 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:15,120 that he knew she'd had a AirBunny's relationship with the man they were investigating in connection 596 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:24,720 with the bombing and revealed that he was now their prime suspect in the case. 597 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:33,840 For her part, Jack's girlfriend told police, she'd broken up with him in April 2000, explaining 598 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:41,840 that Tim had stronger feelings for me than I had for him. 599 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,200 Can you see who's like in his 40s or he's like, "Yep. 600 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:52,760 To be clear, this was not a relationship and you can't break up with an abuser in a situation 601 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,440 like this for that very reason. 602 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,000 This is not a breakup. 603 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,040 You were not in a relationship." 604 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,040 Oh. 605 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,040 That's awful. 606 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:10,040 She was 14 when they met. 607 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,240 I just want to get out of my skin right now. 608 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,240 Yeah. 609 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,240 Yeah. 610 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:23,480 Additional evidence was found that linked him to the bombings. 611 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:30,160 Evidence strongly indicating that he was behind the campaign of threats against Jack, as 612 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,920 well as the bombs left in Kennewick and Laurel Hurst, obviously. 613 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:42,360 In his wallet, they found that note, but they also found additional notes suggesting that 614 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:49,200 he was tracking not only Jack Hornstein, but his girlfriend and her family. 615 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,200 Yeah. 616 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,680 It's pretty deeply unhinged. 617 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,640 So his jealousy is like the root of all of this, basically? 618 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,640 Kind of sounds like it. 619 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,960 What a way to win a woman back, you know? 620 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,960 Yeah. 621 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,960 Just blow up her current boyfriend. 622 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:06,960 I'm sorry. 623 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,960 I should have said a child. 624 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,960 Mm-hmm. 625 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:09,960 Jesus Christ. 626 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:10,960 Yeah. 627 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,520 She is literally a child. 628 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,600 His own daughter was almost a decade older. 629 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,600 Yeah. 630 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:21,600 Okay. 631 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:28,600 I'm so glad that you bought me that pin. 632 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:29,600 What? 633 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,600 The Minotrash one. 634 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:31,600 Oh, it was like what pin. 635 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:32,600 I'm not. 636 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:33,600 I think about it all the time. 637 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:34,600 The brain isn't working. 638 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:35,600 Yeah. 639 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,600 You should find it and put it out. 640 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:39,600 All right. 641 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,600 You're like, I know right word. 642 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:42,600 Oh, I know. 643 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,600 Hey, listen. 644 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,720 Minotrash all the damn time. 645 00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:51,360 So you got to keep these things out the ready. 646 00:34:51,360 --> 00:35:01,520 The notes that Timothy had sent to a metric, fucked out of people that knew Jack, particularly 647 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:08,520 the ones that were sent to his girlfriend's mom and to Jack's parents. 648 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,120 They'd been designed obviously to put a halt to their relationship. 649 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,120 Mm-hmm. 650 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,880 That makes sense. 651 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,240 One note read. 652 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:25,960 You would think you could find some nice girl your own age instead of messing around with 653 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,200 little girls that don't know better and listen to your lies. 654 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,400 But crazy guy wrote that. 655 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,400 Yep. 656 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:40,840 Yeah, because Jack was a whopping two years older than his girlfriend. 657 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,840 Yeah. 658 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,840 Pot calling the kettle. 659 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,840 Anyone? 660 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,840 Like what? 661 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:51,560 I-- how delusional are these fucking people? 662 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:52,560 Yeah. 663 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:53,560 Seriously. 664 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,200 I mean, just completely delulu. 665 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:06,360 Later in court, Tim's legal counsel, victim blamed the young girl, because she is literally 666 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,360 a child. 667 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:14,400 She's definitely a girl saying that she had seduced him. 668 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,040 He was recently separated and going through a midlife crisis. 669 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,200 It's just-- oh, I'm-- I'm sorry, sir. 670 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:30,160 You're now a middle-aged fuck up in more than one aspect of life. 671 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,160 Well, sure. 672 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:39,360 It's totally reasonable to ease your clearly significant pain by forming a predatory and 673 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:46,360 legally speaking, non-consensual relationship with a child. 674 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,360 I just-- 675 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,320 Did the poor wires came up with that? 676 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,480 Yeah, they basically were saying, well, I mean, it's all her fault. 677 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:56,880 Did you see what she was wearing? 678 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,480 I feel like the judge should just be like, OK, I object. 679 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,480 You're done. 680 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:03,480 You're done. 681 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:04,480 It's the fuck down. 682 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,440 I don't know that that was even a part of the courtroom piece of it. 683 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:17,440 This was actually a statement I think that he made to the press, which is somehow kind of 684 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,080 in a way, like almost worse. 685 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,080 Yeah. 686 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:21,080 I don't know. 687 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,080 I hate it. 688 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,580 I hate it. 689 00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:29,440 So yeah, we'll give you a slap on the wrist for appearances and then get you back on the 690 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,840 field so you can try to recapture the glory days of your youth. 691 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,240 And just actually pretty much what happened. 692 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:52,480 He was sentenced to 26 months in relation to the sexual assault to raping a child. 693 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,200 Repeatedly raping a child, he was sentenced to 26 months. 694 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,960 The attempted murder case wasn't going so smoothly by comparison. 695 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:10,120 So, and since I'm not altogether pleased with the legal proceedings for the child sex 696 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,600 abuse case in Washington, that's really saying something. 697 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:22,680 A local paper stated interviews as well as a 520 page police file from a parallel out of 698 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:30,000 town investigation of the suspected bomber provide rare insight into a mystery involving 699 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,840 sex, lies, videotape and chat rooms. 700 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:42,120 As well as damning evidence that 12 Portland jurors may never be allowed to see. 701 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,320 Of course not. 702 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:51,000 The evidence taken from his apartment, bomb making information and schematics found on 703 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,200 his computer's hard drive. 704 00:38:54,200 --> 00:39:02,240 Studies of numerous threatening letters as well as the note written in Spanish would prove 705 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:06,280 a sticky situation for the case. 706 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:13,880 Law enforcement had not specifically listed his computer or hard drive on the search warrant. 707 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:21,560 So they were afraid that they wouldn't be able to use it because they'd found this evidence 708 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,480 while searching for other items. 709 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:32,880 By August of 2003, the trial related to the pipe bombs and his attack on Barry was approaching 710 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,000 in Portland. 711 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,920 His attorneys filed a motion to exclude on the grounds that the information had not been 712 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:51,120 legally acquired or it was illegally obtained or obtained in an illegal search and seizure. 713 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:57,280 Given these circumstances, the prosecution must not have liked their odds so they offered 714 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,600 him a deal. 715 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,760 Because basically without any of that evidence that came from his computer hard drive, they 716 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,120 were royally fucked. 717 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,880 Seven ways to Sunday. 718 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:18,040 Though he was charged with attempted aggravated murder, assault, arson and the manufacture and 719 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:25,320 possession of a destructive device in Portland, I think it was a rather generous offer on their 720 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,760 part. 721 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:34,400 The plea deal would require him to plead guilty to two counts of attempted murder, after 722 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:41,040 which the prosecution would agree to dropping the 14 additional charges. 723 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:47,000 2 out of 16. 724 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:55,360 He took the deal, which came with a reduced sentence of 12 years instead of the roughly 20 to 725 00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:02,920 30 additional years that he may have otherwise faced based on the charges. 726 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,840 Barry was glad to put the case behind. 727 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:07,840 Yeah. 728 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,240 How long did you say how long it took? 729 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:17,400 I mean, this was like a couple of years by the time they got to sentencing and everything. 730 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:22,560 So I mean, these are never a short. 731 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:23,560 Yeah. 732 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:29,280 I mean, this is going to tie up your life for a minute. 733 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,600 All while he's trying to heal from a literal amputation and probably has to learn how to walk 734 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:40,000 again and getting prosthetics, which he did. 735 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,800 Which is awesome. 736 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,800 Yeah. 737 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:51,320 Barry had, for the most part, really already started to adjust to his new life. 738 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,560 He said he missed walking on the beach, which was really one of the only things that he 739 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:02,280 couldn't really quite do anymore. 740 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:08,680 But he felt that it was good alternative to dying. 741 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:19,240 Oh, Barry and Kathy were able to reconcile despite the tragic circumstances and trying times 742 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,760 that they had faced. 743 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:28,120 Barry passed away in 2022 at 81 years old. 744 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,960 Wow. 745 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,840 And I'll leave you with some of his parting words from one of the mini-docs that I watched 746 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,600 about this case. 747 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,640 My family isn't attacked. 748 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,680 My son wasn't killed. 749 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,920 It could have been him. 750 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,560 I only lost a leg. 751 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,920 It's a pretty cheap price to pay. 752 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,920 A leg to get back your life again with your wife. 753 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,920 Wow. 754 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,120 That's crazy. 755 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:02,760 I was absolutely sobbing just. 756 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,520 I'm a bleak friend watching. 757 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:13,720 To be able to go through that and still have that positive mindset, it reminds me of Ralph. 758 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:17,280 It reminds me of Ralph. 759 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,400 I totally thought when you said gambling, this was going to be a mob thing. 760 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:23,400 I know. 761 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,920 They walked into it. 762 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,920 They walked into it. 763 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,920 The IRA. 764 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,040 Kind of the wrong continent. 765 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,040 Yeah. 766 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:43,480 I do have a few little update and just some where they now. 767 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:51,400 Stuff for the Patreon that it didn't quite fit into kind of our regular episode. 768 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:57,800 But I really wanted to share because, I'm going to cry again when I read that. 769 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,840 I'm going to cry again when I read that stuff. 770 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:09,000 If you want to see me cry like a baby again, after we do our tarot, that's, you know where 771 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,280 to find it. 772 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,560 Yeah. 773 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,400 This case was a fucking lot. 774 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,760 It's, yeah. 775 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,920 It's just like so unexpected. 776 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:22,920 Yeah. 777 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,520 So at first you're like, oh, it's Jack's fault. 778 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:27,520 Not like it's his fault. 779 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:28,920 But like he's the target. 780 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,400 You know, like, what did he do? 781 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,400 Right. 782 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,000 It's like totally like nothing to do with any of his family. 783 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,240 No, not at all. 784 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:43,480 He didn't do anything for, don't date a girl who got abused. 785 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,480 It's crazy. 786 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:45,480 Yeah. 787 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:54,960 And broke up with, broke up with her abuser and then became the target for just, I mean, the 788 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,040 most nonsensical and horrific violent attacks. 789 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:07,840 And just how can you imagine as a 17 year old kid, somebody starts emailing all of your peers, 790 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:15,320 telling them to post these fucking horrible defamatory like posters all around town about how 791 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,720 you're a rapist. 792 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:18,920 That's awful. 793 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:24,760 And then they try to kill you, but instead they harm your dad. 794 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:31,680 And I mean, just the, and the mind games of like the fact that he was getting information 795 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,680 from the girlfriend. 796 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:34,680 Yeah. 797 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,440 That's how he was able to totally fuck with this whole family's head. 798 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,120 When they were going to send him to Seattle, they were like, oh shit. 799 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,160 Like, well, like, like, have we been hacked? 800 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,240 Or like, is it Jack's girlfriend? 801 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:54,520 Like, you just feel like there's no one you can trust. 802 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,440 Right? 803 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:57,440 I can't. 804 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:02,960 I cannot even wrap my head around with that. 805 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:08,040 It's just, I just, I have no words. 806 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,480 I literally have no words. 807 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,000 This happens a lot. 808 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,000 Yeah. 809 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,240 It's just so gross. 810 00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:16,240 Humans. 811 00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:17,240 Yeah. 812 00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:19,240 You know what would make me feel better? 813 00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:23,920 I think I do, but I want you to say, just, I don't know. 814 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,240 Maybe if we like just did like a little bit of tarot. 815 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:28,240 Tarot? 816 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:29,240 Yeah. 817 00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:30,240 What do you guys think? 818 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:31,240 Wouldn't make you feel better? 819 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:33,720 I hope so for God's sake. 820 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:42,960 I mean, we might get an icky card, but all right. 821 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:48,000 As indie podcasters, we love to show our support of other awesome shows. 822 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,880 So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week. 823 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,320 Let show them some love. 824 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,440 You can find their info in our show notes. 825 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:02,920 This is That's So Fucked Up, a podcast about cult, murder and other fucked up stuff. 826 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,840 Like really, really fucked up stuff. 827 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:11,320 He tore out her heart, tied it to a rope and hung it on the wall. 828 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:16,280 Fucking sharks ate Mark under the dinghy. 829 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,320 After his dad dies, he fucking marries all his dad's lives. 830 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,320 Oh yeah. 831 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:27,920 I'm your host, Ashley Love Richards. 832 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,040 Find That So Fucked Up, any where you listen to podcasts. 833 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,080 That's Fucked Up. 834 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,440 You guys were back. 835 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,080 And don't worry, we did get more wine. 836 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:42,080 Well, of course. 837 00:47:42,080 --> 00:48:00,120 And you went right for the middle two days in a row. 838 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,640 King of “Peentacles" reverse. 839 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:05,640 “Peentacles", huh? 840 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:06,640 Pentacles. 841 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,680 Do you want me to read what's on this card? 842 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:09,680 Yeah. 843 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:10,680 Okay. 844 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:11,680 Proverbs. 845 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:20,440 Financially inept stubborn greed, indulgence, sensuality. 846 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:21,440 Hate that. 847 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:22,440 Awful. 848 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,920 Should I read the other things on here? 849 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:26,920 Sure. 850 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,600 Numerology is 14 and 5. 851 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,120 What does that mean? 852 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,120 Interesting. 853 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:33,120 Okay. 854 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,120 King of Pentacles. 855 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,720 Why would it be 14 and a 5? 856 00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:38,760 We need you to tell us more. 857 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,760 Tell us more. 858 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,480 Taurus Virgo Capricorn. 859 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,760 And then we have Earth is the element. 860 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,560 Some other symbol I don't know, and it says 4 again. 861 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:52,560 Okay. 862 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,080 Oh, where it is. 863 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,080 All right. 864 00:48:55,080 --> 00:49:00,680 I'm going to read you the keywords here from our Hended Andy Book. 865 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:09,760 Keywords are security, material success, pragmatism, stability, strength, and worldly power. 866 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,360 Flopped. 867 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,360 In many decks, this king sits on a throne and plays. 868 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,360 Oh, I'm sorry. 869 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:18,360 Yeah. 870 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,360 I see. 871 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,360 See you there. 872 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,360 It all ties together. 873 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,360 It all ties together. 874 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:27,360 Yeah. 875 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:34,720 In many decks, this king sits on a throne and wears rich garments and a crown. 876 00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:40,400 Because he appears with a bowl, symbol of strength, virility, and tenacity. 877 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,400 You mess with the bowl. 878 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:43,880 Get the horse. 879 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,800 No thanks. 880 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,680 In a reading, he may represent an actual person. 881 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:58,040 In which case, he's usually a mature man who exercises worldly power and authority. 882 00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,840 Probably abuses his power. 883 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,560 I'm going to say. 884 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:08,000 When reversed, the king of pentacles indicates sluggish-nish. 885 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,080 Sluggish-nish. 886 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,680 Delays and/or obstacles to material success. 887 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,560 I don't know. 888 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,160 12 to 14 years in prison, roughly. 889 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:21,160 Tim? 890 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:22,160 Timmy? 891 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:23,160 Timmy? 892 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,760 Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity. 893 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:27,760 Hmm. 894 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,000 I'm very insecure. 895 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,000 Weird. 896 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,600 You feel stuck, but don't have to drive to get out of your rut. 897 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,000 You just want to blow other people up. 898 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,000 Hmm. 899 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,800 If the card represents, oh my god. 900 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:48,440 If the card represents an actual person, he may be mercenary, course, dull, witted, or even 901 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:49,440 corrupt. 902 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,760 What's mercenary mean? 903 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,080 I mean, I always think of mercenaries. 904 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,360 Like, they're like people that get sent in. 905 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,960 It's like black ops and they just, you know, fuck shit up places. 906 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,960 You probably fuck some shit up. 907 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,880 I mean, he did fuck to your love, sorry. 908 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,120 Mercenaries and bombs. 909 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,640 Like, there you go. 910 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,640 In a reading about money, your finances are stagnant. 911 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:20,100 You might even incur losses because your stuck in old patterns and have resisted making 912 00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:21,100 changes. 913 00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:22,100 Ooh. 914 00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:26,440 You're worried about money and/or don't handle your resource as well. 915 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:27,440 Okay, short. 916 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,440 I mean, what's that about? 917 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:30,440 Very. 918 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:31,440 Hmm. 919 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:32,440 Perhaps? 920 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:33,440 Yeah. 921 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:38,800 If the reading is about your job, the king reversed may mean your board with your work but 922 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,000 can't find something better. 923 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,000 Perhaps you've sacrificed your passion for security. 924 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,240 Or your job may be in jeopardy and you feel insecure. 925 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:52,200 Just a lot of insecurity. 926 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,200 Hmm. 927 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:54,200 Interesting. 928 00:51:54,200 --> 00:52:00,000 In a reading about love, a relationship may offer stability, but little excitement 929 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,080 or romance, routine or responsibility may drain your vitality. 930 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,200 Perhaps you feel stuck in a relationship for financial reasons. 931 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,280 That makes me think of like, I'm thinking of specifically what they were saying about 932 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:16,280 him. 933 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,480 He's having a midlife crisis, you know, so he just had to fuck a teenager. 934 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:21,480 Yeah. 935 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,480 Which is so gross. 936 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:25,480 No. 937 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:26,480 I just. 938 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,480 I can't. 939 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,320 Like, I get it. 940 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,240 It's your job to defend this man. 941 00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:38,080 But like, you go get a motorcycle and crash it like every other middle aged white man. 942 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:39,080 Seriously. 943 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,840 Do you have to put it like that? 944 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,800 I mean, the actual quote was so much grosser. 945 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,480 It goes on and it is gnarly. 946 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,000 It is so gross. 947 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,000 Yeah. 948 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Yeah. 949 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,520 I was like, I, nope. 950 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,040 Thank you for not reading it all. 951 00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,360 Yeah, I didn't think I could physically. 952 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:07,280 I felt that that was at the outer limits of, you can find it in the source material. 953 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:08,280 Yeah. 954 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:09,280 You go to that. 955 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:10,280 I'm not going to do that. 956 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,760 I'm disturbed enough. 957 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:14,760 Yes. 958 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:15,760 Wow. 959 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:16,760 Yeah. 960 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,240 I feel like this one's calling to me. 961 00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:21,240 Is it calling to you? 962 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:22,760 I mean, it's sticking out. 963 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:23,760 Yeah. 964 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:24,760 Get her. 965 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:25,760 Get her. 966 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,240 It's the full. 967 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,240 That's why. 968 00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:30,840 Oh, get me. 969 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:31,840 Oh, weird. 970 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,680 Your card was calling to you. 971 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,920 Why would it not be? 972 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:37,920 But it's interesting. 973 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:38,920 It wasn't reversed. 974 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,840 So that seems like it could fit. 975 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:41,840 Let me see. 976 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:42,840 The fee will. 977 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,840 That fee. 978 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:51,280 Navite, lack of direction, chaos, recklessness, stupidity. 979 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:56,520 I mean, do I need to read the full interpretation of this point? 980 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:57,520 No. 981 00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,960 I mean, I don't think you do, but there's some fun stuff in there, maybe. 982 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:01,960 Yeah. 983 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:02,460 OK. 984 00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:10,200 So in the reverse, if the fool is reversed, you may feel restless and bored, eager to try something 985 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,440 new, but now it's probably not the right time to act. 986 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,040 Probably never. 987 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:22,760 I think of this as the don't quit your day job card. 988 00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:23,760 This works. 989 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,520 Oh, my God. 990 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,520 Oh, my God. 991 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,560 It's all about like very bad decisions being kind of similar. 992 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:32,560 Yeah. 993 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,400 Don't do this hastily. 994 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,400 Gather information. 995 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,400 Oh, boy. 996 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:38,400 OK. 997 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:45,280 In a reading about love, this card can warn you to look more closely at a partner or relationship. 998 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:51,160 Things may not be where you think the reverse fool may also indicate the end of a relationship 999 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,720 and greater freedom as a result. 1000 00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:54,720 Yeah. 1001 00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:55,720 Take the freedom. 1002 00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:58,200 Like, leave this kid alone. 1003 00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,200 Yeah. 1004 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:00,520 Or, oh, my God. 1005 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:01,520 So many things. 1006 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:07,840 Think before you act, however, for you might regret a breakup undertaken hastily or I 1007 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:12,200 don't know, the revenge you take as a result of a breakup. 1008 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,880 It's funny that it says that it really is. 1009 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:18,880 Yeah. 1010 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:23,280 I mean, I mean, it's the epitome of stupidity. 1011 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,120 Oh, I like that. 1012 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,920 I should put it on a t-shirt. 1013 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,160 Yeah, you really should. 1014 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:35,240 If you loved listening to that Tiro read and want to see it, become a member of our Patreon 1015 00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:40,800 where a video of every Tiro reading is uploaded with the ad-free version of the episode 1016 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,800 each week. 1017 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,920 This week in particular, there's going to be some other fun spoilers. 1018 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:47,920 Not really spoilers. 1019 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,640 It's more of a, where are they now? 1020 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,960 I'm so excited to see you cry again. 1021 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:53,960 Yay. 1022 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:54,960 Yay. 1023 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,520 You're going to cry too. 1024 00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:58,520 I know. 1025 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,240 I almost did this time, but I like held it back pretty good. 1026 00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:02,240 Yeah. 1027 00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:05,680 No, it's all going to be like kind of like that. 1028 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:06,680 Happy cry. 1029 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:07,880 Oh, I'm going to get you. 1030 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:08,880 Like with Ralphie. 1031 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:09,880 Yeah. 1032 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:10,880 Kind of. 1033 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:11,880 Ralphie June. 1034 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:12,880 Ralphie June. 1035 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:19,600 If you can't support us monetarily, no worries, because the easiest ways to support, they're 1036 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,440 actually absolutely free. 1037 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:28,960 Like you can tell everyone, anyone, all of the people that you ever, ever, ever see, anyone 1038 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,800 that you come into contact with about us, which would be great. 1039 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:39,360 And while you're at it, leave us a five star review on any platform you can. 1040 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,280 But also Apple, because they're kind of the boss. 1041 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:43,280 Yeah. 1042 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,640 But also on that note, don't tell any creepy ex-boyfriends about us. 1043 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:48,640 Oh, yeah. 1044 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:49,640 That's great. 1045 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:50,640 Yeah. 1046 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:51,640 Even if you come across them, like don't tell those people. 1047 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:52,840 Yeah, just do us a solid. 1048 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,840 Yeah. 1049 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:58,360 And if you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories to submit for our listener 1050 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:04,280 appreciation episodes, we call them the creepy people chronicles, because we just like 1051 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:05,280 those words together. 1052 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:06,280 We do. 1053 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:07,280 It's so much fun. 1054 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:08,280 It's a cup. 1055 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:09,280 Yeah. 1056 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:20,480 Please email them to us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com, or you can use our handy dandy little link 1057 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,280 to the Google contact form in the episode description. 1058 00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:24,280 Yeah. 1059 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,280 We've made it really difficult for you to somehow miss. 1060 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:29,280 Yeah. 1061 00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,280 And we do need more stories. 1062 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,920 So like, yeah, send them in. 1063 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,120 Just like whenever you're ready. 1064 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:36,120 Preferably now. 1065 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,120 We do want to hear them and we want to read them, but if you don't want us to read them, 1066 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:41,120 let us know. 1067 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:50,520 We'll still read your stories to ourselves, but if you don't want them public, that's fine. 1068 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:55,920 Or we can change names, because you can always remain anonymous. 1069 00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:01,160 And remember, they don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest if you want to share. 1070 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:06,820 And then we can just read your stories from wherever the fuck all of the creepy, creepy, creepy 1071 00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:09,160 shit is happening around you. 1072 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:10,160 Yeah. 1073 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,160 I really want some like Ireland stories, you know? 1074 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,920 I've just been thinking about it a lot, and I just want some good, creepy stories from Ireland. 1075 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,920 So send them. 1076 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:21,920 Yeah. 1077 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:28,280 I just keep thinking that I used to tell people all of these like far thrown places that 1078 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:35,120 I wanted to have stories from and now I'm like, what if I want to go there on my honeymoon? 1079 00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,880 I haven't decided yet. 1080 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:43,400 So okay, well, don't send any stories about any honeymoon destinations until after Caitlin 1081 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:44,400 goes on her. 1082 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:45,400 Yeah. 1083 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,800 Bad news about that. 1084 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:55,040 I've actually found multiple super murdery wedding/honeymoon stories. 1085 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,800 And I'm going to work on at least one of them. 1086 00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:00,560 Why would you do that to yourself? 1087 00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:02,280 Because I am a sadist. 1088 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:03,280 Oh my god. 1089 00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:04,280 I guess. 1090 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:05,280 I don't know. 1091 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,560 Is that sadist or am I a masochist or? 1092 00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,120 I am unwell. 1093 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:11,120 She is. 1094 00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:12,120 Yes. 1095 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:18,200 And if you want to see us both be very unwell, you can follow us on all the socials. 1096 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,840 That's the number one place to see it. 1097 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,680 We have TikToks. 1098 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:23,680 We have Instagrams. @pnwhauntshomicidespod 1099 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,800 We've got the Facebooks, the tweeters, all of it. 1100 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:28,800 So follow us there. 1101 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:29,800 You can see it. 1102 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:30,800 Right. 1103 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:31,800 Yeah. 1104 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:32,800 Right. 1105 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,280 Wait, is it on Instagram? 1106 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,680 It's basically Instagram. 1107 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,800 It's like the tweeters of Instagram. 1108 00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:40,800 I just ignore it. 1109 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:41,960 It's all confusing to me. 1110 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:43,320 Yeah, I know. 1111 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,960 You can find our link tree or our website with links to all of those things. www.pnwhauntsandhomicides.com 1112 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,000 Have a creepy ass day. 1113 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:51,000 Have a creepy ass day. 1114 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,000 See you next Tuesday. 1115 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,000 Bye. 1116 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:59,080 Unless you're out fucking pipe bombing people. 1117 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:00,080 Like it. 1118 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:05,920 Just don't even just don't just don't and if someone breaks up with you, take the fucking 1119 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:06,920 hit. 1120 01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,680 Yeah, maybe it means they don't like you. 1121 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,320 They're just they're just not that into you, you know? 1122 01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:13,320 Yeah. 1123 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:14,320 Watch that movie. 1124 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:15,320 Yeah. 1125 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:16,320 It's great. 1126 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:17,320 Yeah. 1127 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:22,320 I mean, it kind of makes sense because like when you're dating a 14 year old, they just, 1128 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,600 you know, the attention span can be a little lacking. 1129 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:26,600 Yeah. 1130 01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:27,600 Yeah. 1131 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:28,600 Yeah. 1132 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:29,600 Okay. 1133 01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:30,600 We got to go. 1134 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:31,600 Yeah. 1135 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:32,600 Definitely. 1136 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:33,600 Okay. 1137 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:34,600 Bye. 1138 01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:35,600 Bye. 1139 01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:36,600 Bye. 1140 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:37,600 Hi. 1141 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:38,600 Hi. 1142 01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:39,600 It's the lore. 1143 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:40,600 I need to be a pipe. 1144 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:41,600 You say a pipe cleaner? 1145 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:42,600 Pipe and fitter. 1146 01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:43,600 It's a pipe cleaner. 1147 01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:44,600 Yeah. 1148 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:45,600 I need to be a pipe. 1149 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:46,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1150 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:47,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1151 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:48,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1152 01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:49,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1153 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:50,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1154 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:51,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1155 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:52,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1156 01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:53,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1157 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:54,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1158 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:55,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1159 01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:56,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1160 01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:57,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1161 01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:58,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1162 01:00:58,600 --> 01:00:59,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1163 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:00,600 I need to be a pipe cleaner. 1164 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:01,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1165 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:02,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1166 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:03,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1167 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:04,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1168 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:05,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1169 01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:06,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1170 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:07,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1171 01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:08,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1172 01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:09,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1173 01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:10,600 I need to be a pipe fitter. 1174 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:11,600 I need to be a pipe fitter.