Episode 109: A Dark Tale of Paranoia & Tragedy in Rural Oregon

Caitlyn: 0:00

[Theme Music plays under speaker's voice that invokes a true crime, paranormal, & witchy vibe] He had some very unusual looking eyes very unsettling. He was known to rub his head in a frustrated manner and complain that it felt like a squid was sucking on his head.

Cassie: 0:20

Okay? I get that.

Caitlyn: 0:23

Which of course sounds deeply unpleasant Hi, Cassie.

Cassie: 0:40

Hi, Caitlyn.

Caitlyn: 0:42

Hey, creepy people.

Cassie: 0:43

Hellooooooo!

Caitlyn: 0:45

You stole my "Hellooooooo!"

Cassie: 0:47

I'm gonna steal it now every other time.

Caitlyn: 0:50

You can't. "Hellooooooo!" If you're new to our creepy corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts & Homicides. Where we chat about true crime, the paranormal and all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. Because that's what PNW stands for.

Cassie: 1:09

Definitely does Pacific Northwest burn it into your brain PNW. We do a Tarot reading at the end for deeper insight into this episode, so make sure you stick around for that.

Caitlyn: 1:22

So we've already released the short form episode, talking about this case, it was part of our Mother's Day collaboration. So now this is going to be the full length episode. So we'll have some added notes and a little bit of discussion about the case. There may be some other little tidbits that I couldn't quite fit into the short form episode. And obviously we'll do the Tarot reading.

Cassie: 1:51

Yes, and there will be a lot more of me talking because I don't know if you guys notice, but I wasn't really talking that much. And that's because we had a time limit. So-

Caitlyn: 2:01

It was tight.

Cassie: 2:03

So we'll be playing clips from that and then we will discuss them after.

Caitlyn: 2:13

As indie podcasters. We love to show our support of other awesome shows. So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week.

Cassie: 2:22

Let's show them some love! You can find their info in our show notes.

Empath and The Narcissist Podcast: 2:28

You experience a deep betrayal when you are lied to and cheated on by a narcissist. We all know they don't take responsibility. So now what do we do? We address this and more in the empath and nurses podcast, spiritual healing from trauma and abuse for empaths. It is empowering impasse three times a week in recovery and healing from narcissistic abuse and childhood trauma through human design, self care, mindful advice, and expert interviews. Subscribe now to the Empath and Narcissist Podcast and listen to regain your sparkle back after narcissistic abuse.

Together: 3:08

You guys were back!

Cassie: 3:11

And don't worry, we did get more wine.

Caitlyn: 3:13

Well, of course.

Cassie: 3:17

Okay, are you guys ready?

Caitlyn: 3:19

Sounds good.

Together: 3:20

Let's do it.

Caitlyn: 3:22

Many of us if we choose to, or are able to celebrate Mother's Day, we do that by sending our mama card or maybe some flowers, you know for not close enough to actually visit. Since my Mom lives in the area, we love to do brunch. It's a nice relaxing way to do something everyone can enjoy for the occasion.

Cassie: 3:47

Well, I think of mimosas... crepes.

Caitlyn: 3:51

But because this isn't a podcast about brunch, in May of 2015 not everyone would be able to celebrate the way they might wish. Particularly in the somewhat rural Oregon areas of Colton in Estacada. Do you- are you- how familiar are you with Colton or Estacada?

Cassie: 4:13

I don't think I've ever heard of Colton.

Caitlyn: 4:16

Yeah, very small.

Cassie: 4:18

Maybe I have I don't know, but I don't really know where either of them are. I don't think I know where Estacada is either. I've heard of it.

Caitlyn: 4:25

Oh yeah, pretty much everyone in Oregon has heard of it. And there's actually a lot of pretty camping out that way. I'll show you really quick.

Cassie: 4:36

Oh, it's gorgeous.

Caitlyn: 4:37

Yeah, it's not far from Milo McIver disc golf course. Oh, that's really pretty much it.

Cassie: 4:47

I don't play disc golf, but I do like to camp.

Caitlyn: 4:50

Camping, yeah. State Park by the same name. Milo McIver. I think I think that's how people say it.

Cassie: 4:57

I don't know. Oregonians let us know. Yeah, "Estacadains" let us know.

Caitlyn: 5:02

So both Colton and Estacada are kind of smaller little towns, villages?

Cassie: 5:10

I don't know. I'm not really sure.

Caitlyn: 5:12

Colton might actually qualify more as a like a village. But they're I mean, they're growing areas for sure. But so little bit more rural, "rural juror."

Cassie: 5:23

You said it great, both of them.

Caitlyn: 5:25

The latest data from 2021 says A cicada has a population of 4,764.

Cassie: 5:34

It's pretty good sized.

Caitlyn: 5:36

Yeah. And just to sort of triangulate it, for those of us that aren't super familiar with the area, or just Oregon in general. It's 30 miles southeast of Portland. Okay. Joshua Lee Webb was 36 years old at the time, living in a pole barn on his parents property, where the Webb family home was doing odd jobs in the small community of Colton. His parents, Tina Marie and David Webb were aware of only some of his struggles. The Webb's had lived in that neighborhood for about 20 years. Their neighbors said that Tina Webb had actually graduated several years prior with a horticulture degree from Clackamas Community College and was a master gardener.

Cassie: 6:28

Oh, I love that.

Caitlyn: 6:30

I know. Very wholesome. Yeah. She had designed and worked on a garden at a local church.

Cassie: 6:37

Oh, my gosh, and then you just go and make it even more wholesome.

Caitlyn: 6:41

I know.

Cassie: 6:43

I feel bad for his parents. Yeah. Because they seem like they were well known around town then if they live there for 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. Small Town.

Caitlyn: 6:52

Very, very small communities. So there is sort of this sense that kind of everybody knows everybody a little bit.

Cassie: 7:00

Okay, but I really need to know what this pole barn is.

Caitlyn: 7:07

What the pole barn situation is?

Cassie: 7:09

I need to know about this pole barn situation. The "sitch" on the pole barn.

Caitlyn: 7:13

Okay. So initially, I did not know

Cassie: 7:18

You don't have to admit that to anybody. Nobody knows!

Caitlyn: 7:21

Well, I was going to because it turns out it's more interesting than I thought.

Cassie: 7:27

Yeah, you seem very uninterested when I was like, "What's a pole barn?" You're like, "I don't know. Don't care."

Caitlyn: 7:33

My face was like, drop it.

Cassie: 7:35

It's a barn that pulls things.

Caitlyn: 7:38

I mean, not quite. So I'll read you the definition taken from diypolebarns.com.

Cassie: 7:49

Very fancy.

Caitlyn: 7:53

The name pole barn stems from the 1930s. Due to a disrupted economy from the Great Depression and the dustbowl, farmers turned to the most cost effective materials they could to construct new buildings, like recycled telephone poles.

Cassie: 8:11

That is not like what I was expecting at all.

Caitlyn: 8:14

Nope.

Cassie: 8:15

I honestly thought it was gonna be like, housed it housed the equipment that pulled things around the farm. Oh, like I was thinking pull, like P U L L.

Caitlyn: 8:24

Yeah, you can't see how it's spelled. So I can see where- Yeah, okay.

Cassie: 8:29

Yeah, interesting. I get it.

Caitlyn: 8:30

Yeah. He had problems with his vision. And though he was considered kind of a weirdo around town-

Cassie: 8:38

I'm a weirdo!

Caitlyn: 8:39

Not this kind of weirdo. He was generally thought to be non violent. However, concerning his mental health issues that they were perhaps unaware of, at least in parts, they would not remain hidden forever. Later, a number of bizarre accounts about his state of mind and behavior would come to light. Like that he thought his girlfriend was trying to inject him with something in an effort to kill him. Then there was the truly bizarre claim that Fox TV was trying to own him.

Cassie: 9:15

What?

Caitlyn: 9:15

Not exactly sure what that means. He also believed that something in the family home wasn't quite right.

Cassie: 9:22

Him?

Caitlyn: 9:23

He was said to believe that there was a recording device present something like a black box in the garage, just capturing all of the day to day goings on.

Cassie: 9:33

That's like really extreme. He's very, very, very paranoid. It sounds like he thinks his girlfriend is trying to inject him with something?

Caitlyn: 9:42

Yes.

Cassie: 9:42

Like poison or something?

Caitlyn: 9:44

I mean, it's really anyone's guess. Because I have no idea. I did not really find any information that expanded on like no further information is available at this time.

Cassie: 10:02

Like, would he even know like what she was trying to inject him with, though?

Caitlyn: 10:07

I don't think so.

Cassie: 10:08

That is just, I can't even imagine just feeling like someone's about to stab you with a needle.

Caitlyn: 10:14

What's really interesting about that is, like you said, obviously, super paranoid. But on the flip side, you know, this is the same girlfriend, I think There's a Facebook page that the Oregon Live found of his and I'll read to you something that was quoted in an article they wrote about this whole case.

Cassie: 10:41

Oh, okay.

Caitlyn: 10:43

So this Facebook page did not have a lot of entries. I don't know, I haven't looked at it. Don't really have any desire to if it does still exist. One of the only entries other than pictures of a dog and a comment about a thunderstorm shows a heart over the words in a relationship. And the post reads when you can't sleep apart, and anything life throws at you. isn't too much to be with her. Yep, that's where I'm at.

Cassie: 11:17

Oh, well, okay. So very, didn't stay there. Right. Like,

Caitlyn: 11:23

Right. I know, that's really the strangest part is that it's almost like we're talking about two different people.

Cassie: 11:31

Well, that sounds to me is like what everyone does on Facebook is they put out their good feelings, right? Yeah. Don't have any clue what's going on in their real life.

Caitlyn: 11:43

It's that highlight reel.

Cassie: 11:44

Yeah, yeah. One more thing. Fox News was trying to own him. That's what you said?!

Together: 11:52

She's like, "whoa, whoa, whoa."

Cassie: 11:54

What does that mean?

Caitlyn: 11:55

No one knows.

Cassie: 11:56

I'm trying to think I can't.

Caitlyn: 11:59

My brain is broken.

Cassie: 12:00

Yeah, These two things broke my brain. My girlfriend's trying to inject me with something. And Fox News is trying to own me. So I'm going to reach out to Fox News and try to get a statement from them. Were they in fact trying to own this man? So stay tuned.

Caitlyn: 12:15

I'm honestly maybe that's why they let Tucker Carlson go.

Cassie: 12:21

Oh, we figured it out. And this is breaking news, right?

Caitlyn: 12:27

It doesn't have anything to do with any of the election stuff. Yeah, allegedly, that all we have to do is just say allegedly, and then we can get sued.

Cassie: 12:35

Yeah, don't say anything and then just say allegedly after it and you're fine.

Caitlyn: 12:38

Okay. Eventually, his physical appearance began to deteriorate. Not the least of which he had some very unusual looking eyes. very unsettling. He was known to rub his head in a frustrated manner and complain that it felt like a squid was sucking on his head.

Cassie: 13:02

Okay, I get that.

Caitlyn: 13:04

Which of course sounds deeply unpleasant. I'm gonna need you just to expand a little bit on that. Um, what do you mean you you you get that?

Cassie: 13:16

I do! I get the squid sucking on your head thing like when you have a migraine, is kind of what I'm picturing. Like tightly wrapped tentacles, pulling at your brain. Okay. So he just had migraines and didn't know how to express that he had a migraine, maybe.

Caitlyn: 13:36

I feel like I experience migraines. Like I understand what you're saying, when you explain it that way that I get. Okay, that makes sense. I have always likened it more to like having your head in a vise or something. Sometimes. It's not like having your head in a vise where you're like, your head is being squeezed. Sometimes I experience what I call my brain trying to escape. And it feels like my brain is expanding and literally trying to just like crawl out of my skull. Yeah. And then I have pressure on like, behind my eyes. So it feels like my brains like pushing on them.

Cassie: 14:22

I'm literally getting a headache as we're talking about this.

Caitlyn: 14:25

Yeah, it's freaking me.

Cassie: 14:27

Yeah. Are you getting one too? Yeah,

Caitlyn: 14:29

I've been kind of feeling like low grade. Yeah, it gets. Anyways, the long and the short of it is that usually when I have that, what I'm kind of envisioning is like, my brain is knocking, like as if it were a door button on the back of my eyeball, and any minute now. It's just going to be like police and they're going to bring the SWAT team and they're just going to like use that. What is it called? They use it to like break down your door.

Cassie: 14:58

What I was picturing is a bunch of very strong men holding a tree and like banging it at the door. Yeah. You know, like the old school door breakdown. Yeah, that's what I was thinking in my head.

Caitlyn: 15:09

Anyways. So, I mean, the visual for me is just that my eyeball one day just like, rolls out pops out, you know, blowa out. Yeah.

Cassie: 15:17

Yeah, I get that.

Caitlyn: 15:18

So that's cool.

Cassie: 15:20

So I think he's either, you know, just describing a migraine or he is having more of those paranoid feelings. Like, I feel like this one's a little bit more hard to figure out which

Caitlyn: 15:30

Yeah, I mean, two things can be true. And maybe it's a little bit of both.

Cassie: 15:34

Yeah, maybe.

Caitlyn: 15:38

His mother expressed concern to other family members about his mental health. And Joshua himself seemed to be aware that what he was experiencing was not normal. And at times, he even expressed concern that he might harm himself or others.

Cassie: 15:57

he had that much self awareness?

Caitlyn: 15:59

I feel like he was just feeling like he's very much out of control in his own body and mind, he voluntarily turned over firearms, and destroyed knives that he had previously possessed. He went so far as asking his girlfriend to move back to the east coast in order to keep her away from him.

Cassie: 16:21

Yeah, I'm really just mind blown that he turned in weapons and like-

Caitlyn: 16:27

Yeah, he turned some in and then he destroyed others. Yeah. So the ones that he maybe just couldn't turn over to the police. I don't know, if they only have programs that accept certain types of weapons?

Cassie: 16:42

Take all the take all the weapons from all the people?!

Caitlyn: 16:45

Yeah. That'd be great.

Cassie: 16:48

You know, all the crazy people. Yeah. Yeah. And then to tell his girlfriend to move away?

Caitlyn: 16:54

Yeah.

Cassie: 16:55

Did she listen?

Caitlyn: 16:56

I don't know, if she actually moved back to the East Coast.

Cassie: 17:00

I feel like that's probably not something that would ever have been reported. But yeah, I had to ask.

Caitlyn: 17:05

Absolutely. Yeah. As far as I know, she did take his advice and steer clear of him.

Cassie: 17:12

She could see the color red... The red flag.

Caitlyn: 17:18

Oh. I was like "what?"

Cassie: 17:21

The red flag was the wavin'.

Caitlyn: 17:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think there were enough things that were becoming clear to some of the people in his life that if they knew enough, they were trying to do what they could.

Cassie: 17:35

Yeah. It seems like he was kind of screaming out for help.

Caitlyn: 17:40

It does.

Cassie: 17:40

Yeah, that's sad. I don't feel bad for him.

Caitlyn: 17:44

But I mean, I kind of do, and then I kind of don't.

Cassie: 17:48

I feel bad for the person he could have been if he got help.

Caitlyn: 17:51

Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to think about it. On May 13, according to his father, they had a conversation before Joshua went to bed, and his father could tell that he was taking the breakup really hard. He didn't know any particular red flags or warning signs though. Breakups are hard. So he really didn't give that conversation another thought.

Cassie: 18:18

Yeah, that sounds pretty legit.

Caitlyn: 18:20

Joshua took it a step further, when he also falsely reported himself as a murderer to two different police agencies, in an effort to be taken into custody.

Cassie: 18:33

If that isn't the biggest cry for help. See, I said it in the original episode even and totally forgot that I had said, but it was like a really big cry for help. And it just keeps going like he turned himself in as a murderer or even before he was a murderer. Like, hello!

Caitlyn: 18:53

Yeah. Yeah. I mean-

Cassie: 18:55

Hi, I am the murderer, it's me!

Caitlyn: 18:57

I know, I mean, I don't know what else a person can possibly do. And I feel like every time we've discussed this case, I've said I, I'm at a loss for what more he could have done to try to prevent this.

Cassie: 19:12

Because you could say, oh, maybe he should have like gone to therapy or asked for a therapist. But when you're in that mind set, you can't always ask for exactly what you need. But if you are showing signs of obvious distress, or-

Caitlyn: 19:30

Violent tendencies.

Cassie: 19:32

Yeah, like other people need to take note of the people in their lives. Yeah, it's a hard situation. I'm not saying anyone, like did anything wrong, but-

Caitlyn: 19:40

Exactly. I mean, that really is the hardest part is that you don't feel like anyone did anything wrong. Other than obviously, it is wrong to kill people.

Cassie: 19:50

Yeah, that part is wrong. Yeah.

Caitlyn: 19:52

I mean, under the circumstances, though, like we you know, we keep saying how do- how do you do anything that's more proactive than the things he tried to do? Yeah.

Cassie: 20:06

Yeah. Well, and then of course, there's the issue in this country with medical care. And it's not always easy to access, especially a therapist.

Caitlyn: 20:15

Yeah, I think it's a lot easier to buy a gun than it is to access adequate health care in some respects. Yeah.

Cassie: 20:26

That's fucked up.

Caitlyn: 20:28

On Mother's Day, fears that perhaps they couldn't admit even to themselves, would burst forth into reality. When Joshua's sister arrived at the Webb family home, along with her children to celebrate with the family, she was immediately alerted to the fact that something was very wrong. When she sadly found Joshua's dog stabbed to death in the kitchen.

Cassie: 20:55

No, what?!

Caitlyn: 20:58

I know. I'm really praying that her kids didn't see that.

Cassie: 21:02

I hope not. That's so sad.

Caitlyn: 21:04

But it's not until she steps further inside the family home that the full depth of the horror she stumbled upon is realized. So there were two neighbors that did speak to it sounds like law enforcement as well as the media at the time. And they said that Joshua's sister actually came to their house to ask them to call police. So it's a good possibility that all of these people were kind of hunkered down in their home, the neighbor's house. Okay. So I don't know, you know, how many children she had with her present at the time. You know who these people were exactly. But they said, you know, she was crying and obviously in shock, and one of the neighbors said, this is just a nightmare. It's something you wouldn't imagine someone would do. And these are two neighbors that live within a few neighbors of where the web home was. They didn't give their names to the reporter that they spoke to for this article at the time. Because they wanted to let the family know first. They didn't want to give their information when speaking to the media. Until after they had spoken to the family.

Cassie: 22:40

Wow.

Caitlyn: 22:41

So it's a small community. These are people that are well known and like, everybody knows everybody, it just speaks to that they have a lot of respect for the family. Yeah, that's what it comes down to for me.

Cassie: 22:54

That's crazy, the foresight they had.

Caitlyn: 22:57

Yeah, I agree.

Cassie: 22:59

Because like, that's not something you would necessarily always think about if I give my name. I'm not the one who's being harmed but right. I live very close in a very small town. Oh, I'm like holding my heart for those people, too.

Caitlyn: 23:15

Yeah. It's really heartbreaking.

Cassie: 23:18

So many people get affected by this shit. Like they're traumatized too even though they they didn't see a crime scene, but they saw someone who saw a crime scene which is chilling.

Caitlyn: 23:32

Yeah. I can't imagine that that is a visual that leave s your mind easily. On Mother's Day, of all days, she would find her mother's decapitated body lying on the floor.

Cassie: 23:48

Oh, I just got freezing cold.

Caitlyn: 23:52

When she dials 911. At this point, there's already another call coming in to dispatch from a local grocery store.

Cassie: 24:01

I can't even imagine like finding my mom. Yeah, like passed on, let alone the way that she passed on. Yeah, it's the most horrifying thought and I like wanna cry.

Caitlyn: 24:16

I know. It's really upsetting. And the thing is, that 911 call that was coming in from the grocery store was not the only call that was being made. There was a woman who was normally working at that store. She'd worked there for about three years. I'm not going to use her name. I mean, if people want to find it, they probably can. But I feel like it's just it's rough to be associated with this story in even a tangential way. She wasn't working that Sunday, but she started to get calls and texts from friends and family asking if she was safe. So people were already hearing about what had happened.

Cassie: 25:10

Oh my gosh. And she did you say she normally work that day, is that what you said?

Caitlyn: 25:18

Yeah, it sounds like she normally worked on over the weekend. And she just happened not to be working that day, maybe because it was the Mother's Day holiday. And, you know, sometimes people ask for a holiday off or-

Cassie: 25:33

Yeah, that is crazy, though. We've come across that a couple of times where someone was supposed to be in an area or they weren't supposed to be in an area that they ended up being

Caitlyn: 25:43

Yeah. And who knows. I mean, it could just be simple, in. you know, rotation of who works, you know, Sundays or whatever. But just to hear that it's really that small, that tight knit of a community that she's already being called and texted like, "are you okay?" Because people know that she might be there.

Cassie: 26:09

I feel like I've done that before. Like, I heard something happening in a store that my friend works at and I'm like, "Hey, are you working today? Are you okay?"

Caitlyn: 26:19

Yep. My mom was actually out Christmas shopping, I believe. When the when the shooting happened at the Clackamas Mall.

Cassie: 26:30

No. Oh my god.

Caitlyn: 26:33

Yeah. She had been shopping out in that area. And I think she had been at the mall at some point that day. I'll have to ask her about that. Oh, I don't remember clearly the details or anything, but I just remember thinking, wow, okay. Even if you were just nearby, I mean it just to come that close to something potentially really horrific like that. You just never know.

Cassie: 27:01

No, live it up because you never know.

Caitlyn: 27:04

Yeah, you only YOLO once. The caller described a disheveled man and during the store, wielding a bloody knife. And we're not talking about a butter knife. It was an eight inch knife, some more like something you'd use to carve a turkey. But it gets worse. Witnesses would state that, in his other hand appeared to be a severed human head.

Cassie: 27:31

No, we're not in Sleepy Hollow. This is not a headless horseman situation.

Caitlyn: 27:35

The man helped himself to a soda from the cooler drinking it right then in there in front of the stunned employees at the store. He threatened one of the store clerks gave chase and then gruesomely began stabbing the man, Michael Wagner. Michael Wagner was 64 at the time. So I mean, he's not an elderly man. But immediately I was concerned when I was researching this story that Oh, my God, please tell me that, you know, he's going to survive. Please tell me that Michael is not going to die in a grocery store this way.

Cassie: 28:20

At 64.

Caitlyn: 28:21

Yes, that would have just been horrific. But it Yeah. And he did. He did have to have emergency sounds like there were employees there that had first aid surgery. He suffered wounds to both his stomach and his training. So they were able to kind of make sure that whatever sternum. So yeah, that may have been until he was able to get to life saving measures that could be taken right then and there. They did that. the hospital. That could have certainly been a potentially

Cassie: 28:38

That's amazing. life threatening series of injuries. Everything that I've read says that he was stabbed up to seven times. So not an With an eight inch knife. That's a pretty big knife. insignificant It's large. Yeah. Oh, I remember hearing about this on the news. And I was like, the first thing that jumps out at you, obviously, is the fact that he's carrying around a head.

Caitlyn: 29:28

I just the horror of that...

Cassie: 29:31

It's terrible. And I feel like I don't know. I feel like they kind of use that as like a headline. Yeah, a headline grabbing thing because I can't even put into words like how chilling it was to hear that on the news. I don't know.

Caitlyn: 29:49

It's, it's hard to know, when you're picturing that exactly what they were seeing and there's a certain amount of horror that you just, like, don't want to picture it. Yeah.

Cassie: 30:05

I didn't put it together that it was Mother's Day. I don't know when they were reporting it on the news, but I didn't put that together. I definitely didn't know anything about her daughter actually finding her.

Caitlyn: 30:19

Yeah, I do think that is probably one of the most horrific parts and there's just so much about this that's really, truly horrific. The other employees immediately moved to subdue the attacker. They used duct tape to restrain the attacker before calling the police. I don't think most of you are likely having any trouble connecting the dots. But this was Joshua, who became completely catatonic. At that point. He was taken to the hospital where he would remain in that state until a full 24 hours had passed. When he snapped back to reality, he said, I had a nice nap before providing a freely given confession to the horrific crimes of the previous day. This case did not go to a jury trial was pretty open and closed. He pleaded guilty by reason of insanity. His defense attorneys obviously wanted to see him sentenced to a mental institution rather than simply being incarcerated. Two psychiatrists, one from each of the opposing legal teams testified in his trial, they agreed that this was the correct course of action, as both confirmed a diagnosis of schizophrenia and psychosis. At the time of his trial, he had been medicated for his psychosis for roughly a year, but was still exhibiting signs of schizophrenia.

Cassie: 32:01

Oh my gosh, so even medicated? Yeah, he was still showing signs. Wow. Yeah.

Caitlyn: 32:08

Pretty serious mental illness. And I think that, certainly some of that paranoia that for us was like, "Whoa." It makes a lot more sense now.

Cassie: 32:20

Yeah, definitely does.

Caitlyn: 32:22

Joshua's father, David Webb, who hadn't been present at the time of his wife's murder, said, "My wife was wonderful. I've been married to her for almost 41 years. Joshua was our son. I never saw a problem. Evidently, there was one. I start crying. Every time I think about it."

Cassie: 32:45

Oh, that poor man. We're crying again now listening back. That was a that was a hard thing to hear. Yeah, the poor- I said, the poor man.

Caitlyn: 32:56

I know. He did not speak during his trial, or make eye contact with either his father or his sister. Following his trial, he would be sent to a state psychiatric hospital. Both his sister and the daughter of the other victim, Michael Wagner, felt that his sentence should involve prison time, which I'll be honest, is pretty puzzling to me, because I can see being angry, and they have every right to be. Yeah. But I do think that this one really seems like a clear cut case where he really belongs in a mental institution. Yeah, that's not to say that maybe there aren't things that I don't know. But that that's my takeaway.

Cassie: 33:48

Yeah. From the information we had about his behavior prior. And after because you said even medicated he, he's still exhibiting signs.

Caitlyn: 34:00

Yes. Yeah. And just one more kind of anecdote, I guess we'll say before we get into the tarot when I go to do a case, especially something that I pictured this really having gone far and wide out there in the world, and it did through certain news outlets. But I was curious if any other podcasts had covered this case. The only other podcasts that I could find that has covered this case was That's A Bad Sign. They actually received this case topic as a suggestion from a listener. Brandon, a listener of theirs from Estacada wrote in with this case as a suggestion, Brandon said that his father had been an acquaintance of Joshua. Estacada is a super small town, I think I've only said it about 100 times. His father had done some work for him on his van and Joshua couldn't afford payment. But he offered in lieu of cash to provide the man with a homemade AK-47.

Cassie: 35:30

Holy shit.

Caitlyn: 35:32

The man declined and reported this to the police, but nothing ever came of it. Now, what's really interesting is, I remember kind of looking at sort of the summation that a lot of the journalists or reporters were providing. Joshua did not have a criminal record for any type of violent crime. In fact, he had one. I mean, a really stupid, silly offense on his record, and it had to do with having metal on tires. I'm not familiar with this particular piece of law. It sounds like it was really not a big deal. But I just feel like there's so much about this case, that it just doesn't make any sense. It's so senseless.

Cassie: 36:30

Well, should we try to make some maybe a tiny bit of sense out of something with a Tarot read?

Caitlyn: 36:37

Yeah, I think so. Okay, Tarot?

Cassie: 36:40

Let's Tarot about it.

Caitlyn: 36:43

[Magic wand chimes] As indie podcasters we love to show her support of other awesome shows. So stay tuned for the promo we've got to share with you this week.

Cassie: 36:53

Let's show them some love! You can find their info in our show notes.

Deep Dark Secrets Podcast.: 37:01

I am Alecia Lockhart. And I'm LaDonna Humphrey. We're the CO hosts of the Deep Dark Secrets Podcast. We're a true crime podcast that shines a light in some really dark places. Season One covers the dangerous topic of death, fetish forums and related murders. Did you know there are people out there that want to see a woman get stabbed, drowned or hung to fulfill some sort of sexual desire? Well there are and we've gone undercover in a number of these seedy gated online communities. We have watched 1000s of wannabe murderers talking shop about techniques for abducting, torturing, raping and killing women. People are dying at the hands of these death fetish predators. And we have to take a stand, we will shine a bright, unrelenting light on the deep dark secrets of the death fetish community. And we invite you to join us as we do. So tune in every Monday as we expose the fringes of true crime.

Together: 38:23

You guys, were back!

Cassie: 38:25

And don't worry. We did get more wine.

Caitlyn: 38:28

Well, of course.

Cassie: 38:31

It's interesting. You went with this pretty like "naturey" theme, and we were just talking about how beautiful Estacada was and like the nature scene there.

Caitlyn: 38:40

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

Cassie: 38:44

What are we going to find out about this horrendous, horrendous crime.

Caitlyn: 38:51

Okay, I think-

Cassie: 38:54

Can't tell if you're making a good face or a bad face. You guys. Let's- Oh, okay. We got The Devil. Which we've got this like one other time I feel like. In this deck, I feel like we got this ladybug one. I feel like we did but, I could be actually crazy. We don't know yet.

Caitlyn: 39:16

Okay, well, I can go back through the tarot journal and see.

Cassie: 39:22

Also these are not ladybugs. I did this last time. Yeah. Because they're on hops. Yeah, so the devil is number 15?

Caitlyn: 39:32

15. Keywords are obsession, indulgence, fear, materialism and egotism. Many decks picture a medieval Christian type devil, complete with horns, hooves, a hairy tail, and a pitchfork. It's quite the visual. The Rider Waite Smith deck shows to smile All human like figures at the doubles feet, one male and one female, with chains around their necks that represent bondage to the material realm. Notice the chains are loose though, and the people could easily slip them off suggesting this card is about self imposed limitations. When you think of the devil, what comes to your mind? Consummate evil, a mythical creature, a symbol of human indulgence, ignorance, egotism, greed and irresponsibility? I

Cassie: 40:33

God I hope not. think of the devil as the obsession card. And we have an extra excerpt. The Devil appears to be one of the more alarming cards of the major arcana. However, he does not represent satanic forces or evil. That goatish guy is paganism is

Caitlyn: 40:57

In the Thoth tarot Crowley's Devil is clearly horned god Pan connected to the fertility rates banned by the Christian church. Therefore, his appearance can indicate a sexual component to your question or concern. phallic. When the devil shows up in your reading, he recommends reevaluating your relationship to people and material things that keep you chained. It's time to let go of old fears, hang ups, inhibitions and ways you manipulate others to satisfy your needs. The Devil tells you to figure out what's true and what's false, at least for you. There's something about that what's true and what's false, at least for you. Like, it just speaks to an altered perception of reality to me. Yeah, if that makes sense. In a reading about money, this card can advise you to confront fears about financial security, social status, and material success.

Cassie: 42:16

How long ago was this?

Caitlyn: 42:18

Roughly six years ago.

Cassie: 42:19

Okay? Because I was just thinking about how mental health is like kind of just now starting to we're starting to look at it and not fear it as much and try to get people help. So it's just kind of thinking about that and the fear that people have around, you know, getting help for your mental illness, which was a huge part of this.

Caitlyn: 42:39

Yeah. I mean, definitely. This says, Are you too attached to money and material things? Are you taking advantage of others for personal gain? Are you selling your soul to the devil in order to profit?

Cassie: 42:57

Weird sounds like our healthcare system. What? Yeah, did I already say that or something or?

Caitlyn: 43:04

Yeah. Interesting. I'm not sure that the work applies, but I'm gonna read Love. The devil asks, is an abusive, obsessive or harmful relationship adversely affecting your life? I would say so. And I don't know how applicable this last section is. But there is another extra excerpt as well. Sexual desire may cause you to overlook character flaws in a partner. Self inflicted bondage is preventing you from moving forward. And the extra excerpt says the beast is always the dark face of the handsome prince.

Cassie: 43:45

Ooh, because they kind of had a beast inside of him.

Caitlyn: 43:49

Yeah. I do feel like if you look at this really more from a symbolic perspective, there are definitely some things that you can feel like there's a takeaway a little bit.

Cassie: 44:02

And it seemed it talked a lot about obsessive thoughts, which is like to me his thoughts about his paranoia.

Caitlyn: 44:08

Yeah. Wow.

Cassie: 44:12

Should I read this little ditty? I think we read it before but why not? Let's do it again. They're hops and Japanese beetles that are eating the hops. The Devil always comes from outside. It is the voice whispering in your ear, the monkey on your back, the invasive beetle stripping your leaves to skeletons. But if the devil comes from the outside, why does it take root so easily? The beetle has no natural predators. Kind of like humans, except for humans! The leaves and grasses wait to be devoured, defenseless. A land ripe for consumption. A heart ripe for temptation. Like You're waiting for it. Like maybe it's not the outsider you thought it was. Better rip it out by its roots before it takes hold.

Caitlyn: 45:13

I just feel like this type of crime that you would think would be coming from-

Cassie: 45:19

An outsider. And it came from in the family. This was this. What it said about Rip at Rock. I can't even talk because I'm like shaking. Rip it out before the roots take hold the I'm thinking of like the tentacles wrapping around his brain.

Caitlyn: 45:38

Oh My God yeah, I didn't even make that connection.

Cassie: 45:42

This, this sad mental illness that he has is like, trying to take hold of him. And he was trying so hard to fight it. It's really sad. I don't cry a lot.

Caitlyn: 45:54

Yeah. I just feel like no matter what we try to intuit from this is just like there- there's really no upside, if that makes sense. No. Wow.

Cassie: 46:13

Sorry, guys.

Caitlyn: 46:15

Wow. Well, I really tried to make it like a cute little fairy garden of a altar setup. But and now that seems-

Cassie: 46:23

But that's our little touch on it, though. That's the side we've we talked about that a lot is yeah, we try to do these nice little things to kind of balance out the horrific shit that we talked about. So. Wow. That affected me like a lot more than I thought it was going to that tarot read, sheesh.

Caitlyn: 46:43

No, I'm really- I'm just surprised to see you like that emotional. Yeah, it like that is the part that kind of has me a little bit speechless as well.

Cassie: 46:53

It just it's hard, I think because I relate because when people cry out for help, and then they don't get it. Yeah, it's really sad. I hate it. Yeah. Well, if you know anyone in your life that needs help, like help them please.

Caitlyn: 47:09

Yeah. I just- and it's so- we actually have to record a message related to it's a mental health message that we're going to it's going through another podcast that we're working with.

Cassie: 47:29

I didn't even put that together.

Caitlyn: 47:30

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to explain this fully. But the it's like a suicide prevention message that we're going to be recording for something, another project that we're working on, it's not going to be airing on our show. Although that almost makes me want to record it and just share that.

Cassie: 47:51

And like just add it to this episode, I think. Okay, well, what do you guys think? Yeah, let us know.

Caitlyn: 48:00

If you loved listening to that Tarot reading and want to see it, cuz duh, become a member of our Patreon where a video of every tarot reader is uploaded and the ad free version of the episode each week.

Cassie: 48:17

Those videos typically have a lot of extras that we cut out of the regular episodes.

Caitlyn: 48:22

It's true. Yeah.

Cassie: 48:23

There's a lot of shenanigans sometimes that goes on back here that only the Patreon gets to see.

Caitlyn: 48:29

So true. The regular feed will never know how many times I've almost lit myself on fire.

Cassie: 48:35

They'll never know unless you tell them.

Caitlyn: 48:37

I just told them shit. Patreon is a monthly subscription with a range of price points and benefits. There's multiple tiers. Every member gets a personalized welcome card, which currently comes with a tarot card reading of your very own.

Cassie: 48:57

Oh, yeah, does!

Caitlyn: 48:59

And we're gonna start doing a personalized shout out in an upcoming episode. This is new y'all!

Cassie: 49:07

Oh, yeah, that's very exciting. We get a shout out some of our lovely creepy people Patreon names.

Caitlyn: 49:14

Yes. So listen up for that it's going to be we're going to start that pretty soon. Exclusive bonus episodes. We've also done a couple of Live episodes. Yeah. And random goodies. We've occasionally broken out our crystal vending machine prizes during our lives. And there's a lot of other stuff I know I'm probably leaving something out.

Cassie: 49:41

There's so much more, so much more. If you can't support us monetarily. No worries, because the easiest ways to support are absolutely free!

Caitlyn: 49:52

Free 99!

Cassie: 49:53

Yeah! That's my favorite price.

Caitlyn: 49:56

Tell everyone and anyone you come into contact with about us. Everyone! Literally everyone Grandma? Tell her.

Cassie: 50:04

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Caitlyn: 50:05

Tell them. Or leave us a five star review on any platform you can. Apple is a really big help you can leave a glowing review. We always appreciate it.

Cassie: 50:19

You can also rate on Spotify to now you can't leave a review but you can leave five stars. Yeah, only five though.

Caitlyn: 50:25

Leave the five stars.

Cassie: 50:26

If you have any true crime paranormal or witchy stories to submit for our listener appreciation episodes, Creepy people Chronicles.

Caitlyn: 50:35

The creepiest.

Cassie: 50:36

Please email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com all spelled out. There's no special characters in there. Or use our handy dandy Google Form link in the episode description.

Caitlyn: 50:51

Yeah, I made that.

Cassie: 50:52

She did. It's great.

Caitlyn: 50:53

It's cool. You're always welcome to remain anonymous if you like. And remember, they do not have to be from the Pacific Northwest if you'd like to share if you have creepy stories from the Philippines, or from London!

Cassie: 51:11

if you've been to the Bermuda fucking triangle like write us about a please. Yeah, follow us on all the socials. If you don't want to miss out on photos of the tarot cards or beautiful altar setups, and a lot of backstage shenanigans.

Caitlyn: 51:27

Yeah, we be lightin' them stories up.

Cassie: 51:29

Yeah, we do.

Caitlyn: 51:30

You can find our new website or our link tree in the description of this episode to check out all the fun that we have to offer. And there is so much!

Cassie: 51:40

There so much, you guys. Were a ton of fun. I don't know if any of you guys have noticed, but we're a lot of fun... when we're not crying.

Caitlyn: 51:48

It's true. And honestly, like, we're kind of fun even when we're crying.

Cassie: 51:52

Yeah, but don't make us cry on purpose.

Caitlyn: 51:54

Don't do that.

Cassie: 51:55

Okay, only we can do that to each other.

Caitlyn: 51:57

Yeah.

Cassie: 51:57

And you guys,

Caitlyn: 51:58

New rule!

Together: 51:59

Have a creepy ass Mother's Day!

Cassie: 52:03

This podcast involves topics such as violence, sex, and mental illness.

Caitlyn: 52:08

If this might disturb you or those around you, please reconsider. It's okay. If you ever feel unsafe, or suicidal. Please call your local crisis center, emergency services or national hotline in the US. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 1-800-273-8255.

Together: 52:30

You matter. [Music that invokes a true crime, paranormal, & witchy vibe]